--- Log opened Wed Jul 13 00:00:00 2005
00:01 < morfoh> good night sepp_ 
00:02 < morfoh> ppp and procps failing on dietemb too
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01:13 < veki> I started to build mnemosyne.  I was reported thatthere are 21 updated package in the list and that config is started again .  I mean not config ad atthe beginning but a sort of recobfiguration.  I suppose that you update dpackages and that after my svn up it refreshes the list with what is updated.  AM I right?
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10:01 -!- You're now known as rxr
10:02 < rxr> mnemoc: what is the problem with fl_wrapper ?
10:05 < rxr> mnemoc: ah - binutils ic ...
10:05 < rxr> can you mail me the error ?
10:08 < rxr> the released again a firefox without source ...
10:08 < rxr> damn
10:08 < rxr> this source release delay on mozilla projects sucks ...
10:59 < CIA-9> rene * r10139 /trunk/target/livecd/ (init init2): 
10:59 < CIA-9> * even nicer overlay and co. setup: mounting the live.squash to
10:59 < CIA-9>  /mnt/live instead of /live to finally have a really standard
10:59 < CIA-9>  conforming mount point setup
10:59 < CIA-9> * remove the /init{,2} files when they are no longer needed
10:59 < CIA-9> * disabled debug prints
10:59 < CIA-9> * disavled the 2nd /home overlay, did not work out, to be debugged
11:05 < CIA-9> rene * r10140 /trunk/package/x86/microcode_ctl/microcode.init: 
11:05 < CIA-9> * fixed microcode.init to conditionally symlink to /dev/misc/microcode
11:05 < CIA-9>  (since our u/dev setup already does it right)
11:07 < rxr> ouhm damn - the kernel is oopsing in some unionfs file.c with NULL pointer exception ...
11:07 < rxr> grumbling ...
11:53 < CIA-9> rene * r10141 /trunk/package/filesystem/unionfs/unionfs.desc: * added real [A] tags to unionfs.desc
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12:08 < morfoh> hi
12:12 < rxr> hi
12:15 < mtr> hi
12:17 < morfoh> hi rxr mtr
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12:20 < karasz> hi mnemoc morfoh jsaw and others
12:20 < morfoh> hi karazs
12:23 < madtux> hello karasz 
12:23 < morfoh> hi madtux 
12:23 < karasz> hi madtux 
12:23 < madtux> greetings all.
12:43 < CIA-9> rene * r10142 /trunk/package/x11/rxvt-unicode/rxvt-unicode.desc: * updated rxvt-unicode (5.5 -> 5.7)
12:46 < dsoul> rxr: how you check for package updates?
12:47 < morfoh> rxr: while building a target from 2.1 branch curl mostly fails in the first try. after rescheduling the package build it goes through straigtly 
12:49 < CIA-9> chris * r10143 /trunk/package/security/libprelude/libprelude.desc: * updated libprelude (0.9.0-rc8 -> 0.9.0-rc9)
12:53 < CIA-9> chris * r10144 /trunk/package/security/libpreludedb/libpreludedb.desc: * updated libpreludedb (0.9.0-rc7 -> 0.9.0-rc8)
13:39 < rxr> morfoh: NOPARALLEL
13:43 < morfoh> rxr: ?
13:43 < morfoh> curl ?
13:45 < rxr> if it "sometimes" fails ...
13:45 < rxr> dsoul: we have an t2-updates list that notifies about possible updates .-..
13:48 < dsoul> rxr: just asking, comparing to meatoo :)
13:48 < rxr> meatoo ?
13:50 < dsoul> scans freshmeat.net and packages in gentoo portage
13:50 < dsoul> http://gentooexperimental.org/meatoo
13:51 < morfoh> rxr: regarding the update script ... it would be nice if it could "translate" the URL i.e. the one from sf.net
13:52 < CIA-9> chris * r10145 /trunk/package/zope/plonecollectorng/plonecollectorng.desc: * updated plonecollectorng (1.2.6 -> 1.2.7)
13:54 < morfoh> rxr: btw, do you have any news regarding the livecd usability ?
13:56 < rxr> oehm ...
13:56 < rxr> shoudl work mostly
13:56 < rxr> I could inject some more missing stuff in some seconds ....
13:56 < rxr> you wanna build it ?
13:56 < rxr> right now it will not be as the last release CD since some kde and such configs and hacks are not yet inserted ...
13:56 < morfoh> rxr: yes ... I'd like to build one
13:57 < morfoh> rxr: kde isn't an issue for me atm
14:02 < CIA-9> rene * r10146 /trunk/target/archivista/ (11 files in 6 dirs): * the next archivista code drop
14:03 < CIA-9> rene * r10147 /trunk/target/ (archivista/build_image.sh livecd/build_image.sh): * moved the build_image.sh script from archivista to livecd
14:05 < CIA-9> rene * r10148 /trunk/target/livecd/build.sh: * updated livecd/build.sh
14:06 < CIA-9> rene * r10149 /trunk/target/livecd/x86/: * removed live/x86, obsolete ROCK inherited stuff
14:06 < rxr> morfoh: livecd could be usable now ...
14:06 < rxr> but no guarantee
14:08 < morfoh> rxr: thanks ... I'll test it :)
14:08 < rxr> I feared that
14:08 < morfoh> :)
14:09 < morfoh> rxr: is everything on bootdisk build using dietlibc ?
14:09 < rxr> noie
14:09 < rxr> nope
14:15 < CIA-9> rene * r10150 /trunk/target/livecd/ (build.sh build_initrd.sh): * fixed LiveCD boot title
14:17 < rxr> morfoh: you want svn up ...
14:17 < morfoh> rxr: is that ok that the parse-config in bootdisk target is referencing the parse-config from the non-existing dietlibc target ?
14:17 < morfoh> rxr: yes ... svn up now :)
14:17 < rxr> oehm
14:17 < rxr> .oO
14:18 < rxr> no - that should be fixed
14:18 < rxr> no idea what it tries to do ...
14:18 < morfoh> hmmm ... where is choosen what package will be build with diet ?
14:19 < rxr> in the config.in stuff like SDECFGSET_DIETLIBC_pdksh='1'
14:19 < rxr> should be
14:20 < morfoh> ah! ok ... sorry for that dumb question ;)
14:20 < rxr> there are no dumb questions - only dump answers ...
14:21 < morfoh> hehe :) ... thanks anyway 
14:21 < morfoh> rxr: have you seen my query regarding dietlibc ? 
14:24 < rxr> oehm?
14:26 < rxr> so - about 10 windows in irssi cloased ...
14:36 < CIA-9> rene * r10151 /trunk/package/e17/epeg/example-scale.patch: * added a scale factor option to the epeg example
14:51 < CIA-9> rene * r10152 /trunk/target/archivista/pkg_sane-frontends.patch: 
14:51 < CIA-9> * patched sane-frontends in archivista builds with a new feature - soon
14:51 < CIA-9>  in SANE CVS and then the next official release ...
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15:27 < keinek> morning
15:27 < keinek> :)
15:53 < CIA-9> rene * r10153 /trunk/package/graphic/tiff2png/ (. tiff2png.cache tiff2png.conf tiff2png.desc): * added tiff2png (0.91)
15:54 < CIA-9> rene * r10154 /trunk/target/archivista/ (download.txt pkg_sane-backends.conf): 
15:54 < CIA-9> * added injecting of the latest avision backend and the sanebuttonsd
15:54 < CIA-9>  to the archivista target
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16:00 < CIA-9> rene * r10155 /trunk/target/archivista/pkgsel: * added epeg and tiff2png to the archivista target
16:02 < CIA-9> rene * r10156 /trunk/target/archivista/ (build.sh build_image.sh build_initrd.sh): 
16:02 < CIA-9> * converted the archivista target to the latest live cd code, inherit
16:02 < CIA-9>  the actual scripts
16:05 < CIA-9> chris * r10157 /trunk/package/ (2 files in 2 dirs): * added [F] DIETLIBC for radiusclient-ng and added it to dietlibc's parse-config to inject -D_BSD_SOURCE
16:06 < rxr> btw I update firefox ...
16:08 < morfoh> ok
16:08 < keinek> hi
16:09 < keinek> http://www.red-handed.com.ar/FOTO.jpg
16:09 < keinek> where is keinek?
16:09 < keinek> that picture is in 1996 year..
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16:14 < CIA-9> rene * r10158 /trunk/package/www/firefox/firefox.desc: * updated firefox (1.0.4 -> 1.0.5)
16:27 < CIA-9> rene * r10159 /trunk/misc/target/functions.in: * decided to let copy_from_source copy empty directories - often needed
16:36 < rxr> morfoh: eventlog has no .cache
16:36 < rxr> please submit a .cache for new pacakges
16:36 < rxr> also I think it should not be in base ...
16:36 < rxr> pinfo is another thing that should not be in base ...
16:36 < rxr> base should be base - not extra/add-on stuff ...
16:37 < rxr> though pinfo was not added by you I think
16:37 < rxr> just that I noticed those right now ...
16:38 < rxr> pinfo is there since revision 1 - "Initial Import." 2003-04-25 ...
16:42 < CIA-9> rene * r10160 /trunk/package/x86/grub/t2.xpm.gz: * added grub/t2.xpm.gz - seems I forgot to commit it
16:45 < CIA-9> rene * r10161 /trunk/package/graphic/a2ps/no-contrib.patch: * fixed a2ps to not install some unneeded emacs lisp files into /
16:45 < morfoh> rxr: ok ... I'll inject the cache file. where do you want to have eventlog in the tree ?
16:46 < CIA-9> rene * r10162 /trunk/target/archivista/pkgsel: * removed 29 (hopefully unneeded) packages from the archivista target
16:46 < rxr> morfoh: no idea - I only was suprised to find it in base ...
16:47 < rxr> maybe we even need a new category for those ...
16:47 < morfoh> rxr: ack
16:47 < morfoh> rxr: then syslog-ng should also moved to a different place
16:50 < morfoh> I think the tree needs some reorg anyway 
16:50 < rxr> the tree like resorting some packages now that the first pass is over ?
16:52 < mnemoc> rxr: i'll try deleting the cache.... reverting fl_wrapper didn't helped to flex on 2-binutils
16:52 < rxr> puh
16:52 < rxr> maybe only wipe binutils cache ...
16:52 < mnemoc> hi rxr, morfoh 
16:53 < morfoh> mnemoc: hi monkey :)
16:53 < rxr> so you don't loose that all
16:53 < rxr> hi mnemoc 
16:53 < mnemoc> monkey?
16:53 < mnemoc> flex and binutils
16:53 < morfoh> mnemoc: one day you told me that you're like a monkey :)
16:53 < mnemoc> :)
16:53 < mnemoc> how are you butterfly?
16:54 < morfoh> hmmm ... quite good ... thanks. and you ?
16:54 < morfoh> mnemoc: how is the monkey business ?
16:55 < mnemoc> i just finished activities at univ. now i can focus in working
16:55 < morfoh> mnemoc: finishing = abandoning ?
16:56 < mnemoc> finishing the semester. quitting comes after that
16:56 < mnemoc> does anyone else experiences /proc population on /etc/mtab?
16:57 < morfoh> mnemoc: not yet
16:57 < mnemoc> uhm
16:58 < rxr> mnemoc: quitting ?
16:58 < mnemoc> yep.... i hope to return in 1-2 years
16:58 < keinek> hi mnemoc
16:58 < morfoh> mnemoc: none /proc proc rw,nodiratime 0 0 <-- /etc/mtab
16:58 < rxr> mnemoc: ah ,-)
16:58 < morfoh> hi keinek 
16:58 < keinek> now ghost is copying t2 to my notebook :)
16:58 < keinek> hi morfoh 
16:59 < rxr> btw. I kinda enjoy the new mount layout of my finally commited live cd code ...
16:59 < rxr> the so far release cds have been quite messy in that area ...
17:00 < morfoh> rxr: good to hear :)
17:00 < rxr> t2 nearly boots faster in qemu that debian does on real silicon ...
17:00 < keinek> 1 giga in 2 hours by LAPLINK
17:00 < keinek> :)
17:01 < mnemoc> # cat /etc/mtab | grep proc | wc -l
17:01 < mnemoc> 7
17:01 < rxr> I can't imagine how debian users can live with their slow boot scripts ...
17:01 < mnemoc> and i cleaning it yesterday
17:01 < mnemoc> debian users don't know anything else
17:01 < mnemoc> fedora at last
17:02 < rxr> mnemoc: yes here, too
17:03 < mnemoc> proc thing?
17:03 < rxr> though that is a very hacked up live cd to HD dump to get the archivsta target building ...
17:03 < rxr> mnemoc: ack
17:03 < rxr> mnemoc: my iBook does not suffer this
17:03 < rxr> but it is not T2 HEAD
17:03 < rxr> and I usually do not build targets on it these days ...
17:03 < mnemoc> i have noticed :(
17:03 < rxr> you have noticed what ?
17:04 < mnemoc> you usally do not build targets these days
17:04 < rxr> mnemoc: that is not true
17:04 < rxr> I do - right now - see the commits ...
17:04 < rxr> as well as on the boxes at home ...
17:04 < rxr> just not on the iBook ....
17:04 < mnemoc> archivista only
17:04 < rxr> too slow ..
17:04 < rxr> mnemoc: archivista was started 2 days ago ...
17:04 < mnemoc> livecd before that
17:04 < rxr> I built embedded and desktop at home ...
17:05 < rxr> mnemoc: what is your point ?
17:05 < mnemoc> did it built?
17:05 < rxr> of course
17:05 < mnemoc> i got aborts on diet/embedded and uclibc/embedded :\
17:05 < mnemoc> i guess i'm missing something
17:05 < rxr> what kind of aborts
17:06 < rxr> only the libpng did not built recently IIRC
17:06 < mnemoc> http://t2.geeks.cl/regressions/stable-dietemb/regressions.html
17:06 < mnemoc> http://t2.geeks.cl/regressions/stable-uemb/regressions.html
17:06 < rxr> ok, I did not built stable for quite some time ...
17:06 < mnemoc> libpng on diet and libowfat on uclibc
17:06 < morfoh> libpng shouldNb't be the show stopper on embedded anyway
17:07 < rxr> just remove libpng on 2.1 ...
17:07 < mnemoc> stage 1 _is_ showstoper
17:07 < rxr> on embedded ...
17:07 < mnemoc> ok
17:07 < rxr> mnemoc: maybe it never built
17:07 < rxr> I do not remember anymore if it built
17:07 < mnemoc> and libowfat?
17:07 < rxr> maybe it was in the list to make me built one day for my Psion ...
17:07 < rxr> mnemoc: libowfat what ?
17:07 < mnemoc> <mnemoc> http://t2.geeks.cl/regressions/stable-uemb/regressions.html
17:08 < morfoh> rxr mnemoc ... I've moved libpng to the uclibc specific selection yesterday
17:08 < mnemoc> morfoh: ok
17:08 < rxr> mnemoc: no - remove it from embedded in 2.1 ...
17:08 < rxr> nothing it using it anyway
17:08 < rxr> it was just work in progress for the Psion
17:08 < mnemoc> ok
17:08 < morfoh> mnemoc: svn diff -r 10133:10134 http://svn.exactcode.de/t2 <--- libpng rev
17:08 < rxr> the current embedded focused work does not need png so far ...
17:09 < rxr> morfoh: does it built with uclibc ?
17:09 < mnemoc> minimal over 2.1-pristine with fl_wrapper reverted built
17:09 < morfoh> rxr: I haven't tested on new trunk yet but it worked some days before 
17:09 < rxr> well - ok then I might have added it for uclibc - but
17:10 < rxr> if it fails just remove it from 2.1 embedded ...
17:10 < morfoh> rxr: I'll test it if I have some free CPU cycles for a uemb target
17:11 < rxr> mnemoc: ok - I schedule uclibc embeeded libowfat review
17:12 < rxr> alway sent me a mail for such breakage and you will get a response the next day or so
17:12 < rxr> I just can not follow all scrollback with this active channel ,-)
17:13 < mnemoc> isn't rxr: blah blah    logged on away thing?
17:13 < dsoul> bugzilla?
17:13 < mnemoc> we have trac
17:14 < mnemoc> but this errors don't affect 2.1 _branch_    they affect my merge queue
17:16 < rxr> mnemoc: who said I use the /away feature ...
17:16 < rxr> mnemoc: I guess the libowfat update is causing it ?
17:17 < mnemoc> ok, i'll revert it
17:18 < mnemoc> yuck, now libpcap failed on dietemb....
17:19 < mnemoc> uhm... libowfat update is already commited on 2.1....
17:19 < morfoh> mnemoc: I'll fix libpcap
17:19 < mnemoc> thanks :)
17:26 < CIA-9> amery * r10163 /trunk/package/gnue/gnue-forms/gnue-forms.desc: * updated gnue-forms (0.5.11 -> 0.5.11.99-beta1)
17:26 < CIA-9> amery * r10164 /trunk/package/gnue/gnue-appserver/gnue-appserver.desc: * updated gnue-appserver (0.4.1 -> 0.4.1.99-beta1)
17:26 < CIA-9> amery * r10165 /trunk/package/gnue/gnue-common/gnue-common.desc: * updated gnue-common (0.5.14 -> 0.5.99-beta1)
17:26 < CIA-9> amery * r10166 /trunk/package/gnue/gnue-navigator/gnue-navigator.desc: * updated gnue-navigator (0.0.8 -> 0.0.8.99-beta1)
17:27 < CIA-9> amery * r10167 /trunk/package/gnue/gnue-designer/gnue-designer.desc: * updated gnue-designer (0.5.6 -> 0.5.6.99-beta1)
17:30 < mnemoc> aaargg... after rebuilding flex and binutils, without ccache, 2-binutils is F* failing!!
17:31 < mnemoc> uhm... only perl errors now
17:32 < mnemoc> checking lex output file root... flex: fatal internal error, exec failed
17:32 < mnemoc> .oO( what the heck is happening here )o
17:41 < rxr> I particularly like this embedded option:
17:41 < rxr> (uclibc)   uc libC (ugly but many packages to choose from)
17:41 < morfoh> == 07/13/05 19:40:03 =[9]=> Finished building package libpcap. <-- diet ,)
17:41 < mnemoc> unchanged?
17:42 < morfoh> no
17:42 < morfoh> mnemoc: a small patch + entry in the parse-config-9
17:42 < morfoh> -#ifndef __GLIBC__
17:42 < morfoh> +#if !(defined(__GLIBC__) || defined(__dietlibc__))
17:42 < morfoh>  typedef int            socklen_t;
17:42 < morfoh>  #endif
17:43 < mnemoc> :)
17:43 < _Ragnar_> :)
17:43 < morfoh> I'll commit it
17:43 < mnemoc> hi _Ragnar_ 
17:43 < morfoh> yep hi Ragnar
17:43 < _Ragnar_> hey morfoh & mnemoc :)
17:48 < morfoh> should I use Create-CopyPatch on patch files too ?
17:49 < mnemoc> it's recommended
17:51 < rxr> yes
17:51 < rxr> use Create-CopyPatch on mods always ...
17:51 < rxr> +l
17:52 < CIA-9> chris * r10168 /trunk/package/base/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 
17:52 < CIA-9> * added [F] DIETLIBC for libpcap
17:52 < CIA-9> * added small patch dietlibc
17:52 < CIA-9> * added libpcap to parse-config-9 for injecting -D_BSD_SOURCE
17:52 < morfoh> ^ merge it and I think your dietemb will proceed 
17:53 < mnemoc> ok
17:53 < morfoh> I'll go home now ... cu later 
17:53 < rxr> cu
17:54 < mnemoc> cu morfoh 
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17:56 < minto> hi all
17:58 < rxr> hi minto 
18:11 < CIA-9> rene * r10169 /trunk/package/base/serpnp/serpnp.init: 
18:11 < CIA-9> * added serial init from the last LiveCD - might need changes, not
18:11 < CIA-9>  tested to parse with the M4 crap
18:15 < CIA-9> rene * r10170 /trunk/package/x11/xorg/xcfgt2.init: * added xcfgt2.init, untested but should parse with this M4 beast,
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18:44 < mnemoc> rxr: does ppp build on diet/embedded there?
18:45 < rxr> oehm ...
18:45 < rxr> maybe only for uclibc ...
18:46 < rxr> http://nop.net-p.org/modules/pukiwiki/index.php?%5B%5BTavia%5D%5D
18:46 < rxr> ^- didn't knew that one
18:46 < mnemoc> http://t2.geeks.cl/flex.strace.txt <--- ugly
18:46 < mnemoc> tavia?
18:47 < mnemoc> [2004-06-29]Tavia-0.2.5d released. fixed some bugs and added some functions.
18:47 < mnemoc> 1 year
18:47 < rxr> yeah
18:47 < rxr> but intersting that there are tried to make khtml browsers beside safari or so ...
18:47 < rxr> I would not wanna use it konqueror is quite fine ...
18:47 < rxr> interestng anyway
18:52 < minto> mnemoc: have you already given unison a try?
18:52 < minto> Does your emerge also lack the unison command?
18:53 < minto> I manually linked unison to unison-text
18:53 < mnemoc> minto: no time yet
18:54 < minto> okidoki
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18:57 < rxr> grummel grummel grummel - this iBook CD-writer is sooooooo sloooooooooow
18:58 -!- mtr [~Michael@p54AF9F63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #t2
18:58 < rxr> hi mtr
18:58  * mnemoc pipe the curses to flex
18:59 < minto> rxr: count yourself lucky my notebook only reeds, so writing takes even longer (infinite)
18:59 < minto> :-)
19:00 < mnemoc> :)
19:06 < CIA-9> rene * r10171 /trunk/target/ (7 files in 2 dirs): 
19:06 < CIA-9> * removed svn:executable property from livecd/init*
19:06 < CIA-9> * removed the svn:executable property from livecd/menu.lst - yuck
19:06 < CIA-9> * latested build* improvements for archivista and live
19:06 < CIA-9> rene * r10172 /trunk/target/archivista/pkgsel: * added fluxbox to archivista/pkgsel (...)
19:07 < CIA-9> rene * r10173 /trunk/target/archivista/menu.lst: * removed svn:executable from archivista/menu.lst, likewise
19:08 < CIA-9> rene * r10174 /trunk/target/archivista/TODO: 
19:08 < CIA-9> * updated archivista/TODO, just for the case someone needs work while I
19:08 < CIA-9>  have an extended weekend ... *g*
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19:11 -!- mnemoc_ is now known as mnemoc
19:13 -!- morfoh [~jeru@p54BFAF59.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #t2
19:13 < morfoh> re hi
19:13 < morfoh> mnemoc: I guess I should try to fix ppp on dietemb 
19:15 < mnemoc> i should finish nested targets
19:16 < morfoh> :)
19:30 < rxr> cu
19:30 < morfoh> cu rxr 
19:30 < rxr> oh - btw. I have an extended weekend form tomorrow to monday ...
19:30 < rxr> collecting susan in south germany
19:30 < rxr> so mostly not online
19:30 < rxr> cu all then - latest next week
19:30 < morfoh> rxr: ok... have a nice time with susan ... and greetings to her :)
19:30 < _Ragnar_> cu rene
19:30 < minto> rxr: have fun
19:30 < _Ragnar_> have fun
19:30 < _Ragnar_> :)
19:30 < morfoh> hi minto 
19:30 < mnemoc> cu rxr
19:31 < minto> hi morfoh :-)
19:31 < morfoh> minto: did you found the muisches ? .)
19:32 < minto> muisjes? Yes I did, but I still have to mail them.
19:32 < morfoh> ah ... thatnks for the correction :)
19:32 < morfoh> arrrgh
19:32  * morfoh back on fixing ppp
19:33 < minto> morfoh: there's something wrong with your keyboard :-)
19:33  * minto back on syncing t2 on laptop and server
19:33 < morfoh> minto: indeed ... since the laptop was at the IBM repair centre the keyboard isn't the ame anymore
19:33 -!- karasz [~chatzilla@80.97.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:34 -!- karasz [~chatzilla@80.97.102.202] has joined #t2
19:38 < mnemoc> == 07/13/05 13:46:18 =[2]=> Finished building package binutils. <--- finally :(
19:38 < mnemoc> damn m4
19:38 < morfoh> mnemoc: m4 was the problem ?
19:38 < mnemoc> yep
19:38 < mnemoc> i had 9294 flagged as merged, but not really merged
19:39 < karasz> hi everybody
19:39 < minto> hi karasz
19:39 < karasz> mnemoc	== 07/13/05 13:46:18 =[2]=> Finished building package binutils. <--- finally :(
19:39 < morfoh> hi karasz 
19:40 < mnemoc> karasz: ?
19:40 < karasz> is that good news for the rest of us?
19:40 < karasz> waiting for your iso... i mean
19:40 < mnemoc> :)
19:41 < mnemoc> after my 5 test builds success, i'll do some extra merges and tag rc2
19:41 < morfoh> mnemoc: yeha :)
19:42 < morfoh> mnemoc: but you've noticed my mail from today regarding the minimal I've build
19:42 < karasz> i have my fingers crosed
19:42 < karasz> :)
19:42 < mnemoc> morfoh: no
19:43 < morfoh> mnemoc: don't think about it .... it was finished with 0 err's
19:43 < mnemoc> :)
19:44 < morfoh> mnemoc: but I think we've to flag curl NOPARALLEL because it fails on some machines
19:44 < mnemoc> 2.1 branch is stable :)   my merge working copy is not :)
19:44 < mnemoc> .oO
19:44 < morfoh> at least curl mostly doesn't build in the first run
19:44 < morfoh> but if you reschedule it after that it build fine
19:45 < morfoh> or it's a dependency 
19:45 < mnemoc> 7.13 or just 7.14?
19:46 < morfoh> the one from 2.1 branch 
19:46 < morfoh> I guess it's 7.13 
19:46 < mnemoc> uhm
19:49 < keinek> Grrrr i need boot t2 from a floppy!
19:49 < keinek> :D
19:51 < mnemoc> bootdisk use http://www.rocklinux.net/people/clifford/MDLBL/ to create floppy images
19:51 < mnemoc> but i'm not aware of the state of this part of bootdisk
19:51 < SerWou> Hello guys
19:51 < keinek> thanks mnemoc
19:51 < mnemoc> look at build/boot-*/TOOLCHAIN
19:51 < mnemoc> hi SerWou 
19:51 < SerWou> what's up mnemoc  ?
19:52 < mnemoc> nothing :)
19:52 < morfoh> bonsoir SerWou :)
19:52 < minto> hi SerWou
19:52 < morfoh> mnemoc: == 07/13/05 21:51:01 =[9]=> Finished building package ppp. <-- diet
19:52 < SerWou> salut morfoh ;) and hello to minto too
19:53 < _Ragnar_> :)
19:53 < morfoh> does anybody know what PPP plugins will not be availale if I disable pppd plugins ?
19:53 < morfoh> I know all ...
19:53 < mnemoc> :)
19:53 < morfoh> but what do they do :)
19:55 < mnemoc> keinek: look at target/bootdisk/x86/build.sh:28
19:56 < mnemoc> keinek: the code still there, but commented
19:57 < keinek> thanks mnemoc
20:04 -!- sparc-kly [~mubex@64.237.253.131] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:53 < CIA-9> chris * r10175 /trunk/package/base/dietlibc/pkg_patch/pkg_ppp.patch: 
20:53 < CIA-9> * added ppp patch for dietlibc which will fix the build
20:53 < CIA-9> * Note: the ppp stuff for dietlibc still needs some tweaks and testing
20:55 < karasz> hi guys
20:55 < karasz> litle bagger is back again
20:56 < morfoh> karasz: since now we'll ignore the little bagger ;)
20:56 < karasz> anyone interested in a little chit-chat abt clustering?
20:57 < morfoh> karasz: what do you mean ?
20:57 < karasz> i shadding some light about implementing clusters with T2..
20:58 < mnemoc> mosix? beowulf?
20:58 < karasz> drbd?
20:58 < morfoh> karasz: oh! but this is a very complex issue and it depends on what you want to do with the cluster
20:58 < karasz> maybe a cluster target?
20:59 < karasz> i know it is complex, i read a lot abt beowulf but sadly beowulf seems over my head for now
21:00 < karasz> i managet though to set up a clusterknoppix
21:00 < karasz> that was good but some apps do not work with openmosix, or at least that's what i heard
21:00 < mnemoc> drbd and heartbeat packages, and a target mixing them isn't _that_ hard
21:00 < karasz> postgresql is one of them
21:01 < morfoh> karasz: as I said .... first you've to think about what to cluster and then choosing the right techology
21:01 < karasz> that is right but from what i read on drbd page, drbd is not sharing cpu's 
21:02 < karasz> i guess is just for storage
21:02 < minto> Seems like T2 is getting too much targets
21:02 < karasz> or am I wrong?
21:03 < mnemoc> minto: that's why i want to finish 'nested targets', we providing generic targets and people especializing them
21:03 < morfoh> damn ... these motherfuckers EU secretaries of interior agreed to save all phone and internet connection data 
21:03 < morfoh> because the london "event" 
21:03 < karasz> i have a pretty good idea about what i need from clustering
21:03 < mnemoc> due to 50 people??
21:03 < minto> Too much target is not necessarily bad, but I think they should be separated from core T2.
21:04 < minto> Maybe we should set up some kind of sourceforge for T2 targets.
21:04 < karasz> i lack though the knowledge to start searching for technologies
21:04 < mnemoc> t2-powered.org
21:04 < minto> mnemoc: :-)
21:04 < mnemoc> we need our own real website before that
21:04 < minto> This separation is needed because if will get harder to update all targets when new T2 core versions arrive.
21:05 < karasz> minto: you are smiling but it seems to me a very good ideea
21:05 < mnemoc> using _good_ categorization, target wouldn't need to be updated due to relocations or new packages
21:06 < mnemoc> current categorization is simply useless
21:06 < morfoh> as mnemoc pointed we should first focus on bringing T2 in a good shape and ginishing our core targets anyway
21:06 < karasz> a good site like this and the propper propaganda
21:06 < karasz> it can become a linuxer Mecca
21:06 < minto> I agree. I was just thinking out loud.
21:07 < morfoh> minto: :)
21:07 < karasz> but morfoh is very right
21:07 < karasz> as allways I presume...:)
21:08 < morfoh> minto: I know ... and I think that's a good idea. but the  core members have a high load atm afaik
21:08 < morfoh> karasz: I don't agree ;)
21:08 < karasz> of course ;)
21:09 < minto> morfoh: I understand, and want to share the load. :-)
21:09 < morfoh> minto: yes ... I know :)
21:10 < karasz> mnemoc: query? I do not want to fill the logs...
21:10 < mnemoc> nah
21:10 < minto> If it helps ease the pain, I am willing to donate some fast cpu cycles :-)
21:11 < karasz> nah as in?
21:11 < morfoh> minto: I think you'll get some oportunities to show us how fast noisy is building AMD64 targets ;)
21:12 < minto> When rc2 is done, I will give it another go.
21:13 < minto> If only I can find a way to not have to shut it down all the time.
21:13 < mnemoc> don't expect changes on that field on rc2
21:14 < mnemoc> sparc64 will be merged, but i doubt that will affect amd64
21:14 < minto> mnemoc: I am not expecting changes. I just want to build in when rc2 tag is placed.
21:14 < morfoh> minto: you could send noisy to berlin and I'll give you remote access ;)
21:14 < morfoh> .oO( ok ok it was just a try ;)o
21:15 < minto> Morfoh: Where would you place that jumbo jet?
21:15 < morfoh> minto: it doesn't matter if it's fast :)
21:15 < mnemoc> karasz: what did you want to tell me on query?
21:16 < minto> it is fast, glibc in 15 minutes, if I am correct.
21:16 < mnemoc> :(
21:16 < morfoh> minto: I had an office within a NOC with a lot of machines some years ago ... so it doesn't matter 
21:16 < karasz> i wanted to explain what do i need a cluster for... and get some free advices ;)
21:16  * minto thinks morfoh is hearing impared.
21:17 < morfoh> minto: no! :)
21:17 < minto> :-)
21:17 < morfoh> minto: I'm just a hard one :)
21:17 < morfoh> somtimes at least :)
21:17 < mnemoc> karasz: talk here
21:17 < karasz> ok
21:17 < karasz> so here it goes
21:18 < karasz> right now i am buiding database servers for our customers
21:18 < karasz> linux +postgresql
21:18 < karasz> for the wast majority of them a uniprocessor or dual processor is sufficient
21:19 < karasz> some of them though are to big for that
21:19 < karasz> for now the only solution that popped in my mind was an IBM with 8 cpus
21:20 < karasz> buid one of that and i do not like the fact that i can not scale that monster up
21:20 < karasz> if my client grows again i am doomed
21:20 < morfoh> karasz: helll ... what customers do you support .... 8 CPU's ?
21:20 < karasz> so i thought that clustering is the solution to go
21:21 < karasz> yep
21:21 < karasz> aprox 300 users local and remote
21:21 < karasz> querying the hell out of it
21:22 < karasz> from IBM i heard that they advice 25 or max 30 users per cpu
21:23 < karasz> i am beyond that
21:23 < karasz> now
21:24 < karasz> i managed to get out the most from postgres
21:24 < karasz> but i am beyond with kernel, network and storage tunning
21:26 < karasz> started testing various file systems
21:26 < karasz> various RAIDs
21:26 < karasz> soft RAIDs and hard Raids also
21:27 < morfoh> karasz: why the hell you're test software RAID if the perfomance is lacking ?
21:27 < karasz> hard to find here a good RAID board
21:28 < karasz> and also client requests :(
21:28 < karasz> some wiz guy told him that soft RAID is the way to go
21:28 < mnemoc> soft RAID is the way to go _if_ you are poor
21:29 < karasz> i managed to turn him around though :)
21:29 < karasz> clients are akward
21:29 < karasz> and obsolete :)
21:29 < karasz> it doesn't boder them to pay 20000 euro for a server
21:30 < karasz> but they won't pay 200 for RAID support
21:30 < karasz> go figure
21:30 < _Ragnar_> *lol*
21:30 < _Ragnar_> crazy
21:30 < karasz> yep
21:30 < mnemoc> IT fault
21:31 < karasz> explain to them that soft raid needs cpu cycles that they should use for other stuff
21:31 < _Ragnar_> yea
21:31 < karasz> and they ask : why, i have 8 cpus....
21:31 < _Ragnar_> and ide-raid solutions are cheap ...
21:31 < karasz> it should be enough
21:31 < _Ragnar_> can save a lot on the drives
21:32 < karasz> but the same wiz guy sais:
21:32 < karasz> you need scsi
21:32 < karasz> that is the point when i go crazy...
21:32 < _Ragnar_> yes, for the connection from the ide-raid to the host
21:32 < _Ragnar_> but not for the hds themselves
21:33 < _Ragnar_> then each can have their own nice ata-100 port ...
21:33 < karasz> anyway
21:33 < karasz> returning to the subject
21:34 < karasz> biult that machine
21:34 < karasz> beforee that they had a dual processor
21:34 < karasz> i throw them an 8 xeon cpu machine
21:34 < karasz> and everything went slower :(
21:35 < karasz> found out the hard way abt Context Switch storms
21:35 < karasz> it seems that not allways bigger is better
21:36 < karasz> i got out 2 cpus and tweeked around postgres
21:36 < karasz> now everithing is ok
21:36 < karasz> but....
21:37 < karasz> for how long? how long until they add another 30 users....
21:39 < _Ragnar_> O_O
21:40 < _Ragnar_> how would it get slower? poor load balancing in the kernel?
21:42 < mnemoc> rxr: $config on src.$pkg.* thing would be usefull
21:42 < karasz> _Ragnar_: i guess it is a xeon related thing
21:42 < _Ragnar_> weird
21:42 < karasz> at least that' s what i read on pgsql lists
21:43 < karasz> context switch bug
21:43 < karasz> and they adviced opteron cpu's if i have to have more that 4
21:43 < _Ragnar_> O_O
21:43 < _Ragnar_> yea and maybe get dual core on those
21:44 < mnemoc> for x in $( cd config/; ls -1 ); do ./scripts/Create-ErrList -cfg $x -newdelete; done          <--- i love sh scripting :)
21:45 < karasz> maybe...
21:46 < _Ragnar_> is postgresql multi-threaded?
21:46 < mnemoc> yes
21:46 < karasz> in a way it is
21:47 < mnemoc>  ps uax | grep postgres | wc -l
21:47 < mnemoc> 49
21:47 < mnemoc> :)
21:47 < karasz> i know mnemoc 
21:47 < _Ragnar_> O_O
21:48 < karasz> but all those processes are forked
21:48 < _Ragnar_> hmmm ;) okay now I see
21:48 < mnemoc> forks?? yuck
21:48 < _Ragnar_> optimally they should have 1 process per processor
21:48 < karasz> prom the initial posmaster proccess
21:48 < karasz> from the initial posmaster proccess
21:49 < karasz> the initial postmaster process if gets an inquiry give birth to a child postmaster to handle that
21:49 < _Ragnar_> ewwww  ok
21:49 < mnemoc> sure, but forks instead of threads..... yuck
21:49 < _Ragnar_> yea
21:50 < karasz> mnemoc: from where did you get that 49?
21:50 < karasz> i mean how much load is there?
21:50 < mnemoc> quite light
21:51 < karasz> thought so
21:51 < karasz> my ps uax | grep postgres | wc -l is around 1800
21:52 < karasz> usualy it is smaller on other ocasions tops 2000
21:52 < karasz> but that's another story
21:52 < _Ragnar_> yea sounds like you need to go clustered
21:52 < _Ragnar_> is the db suitable for tha?
21:52 < _Ragnar_> that*
21:53 < _Ragnar_> you mainly drive queries, or have many writes?
21:53 < karasz> both
21:53 < _Ragnar_> what ratio?
21:53 < karasz> postgresql support for clustering was the first place to look
21:54 < karasz> i guess 60-40 for read queries
21:54 < mnemoc> http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/erserver/projdisplay.php
21:54 < karasz> no luck with clustering in postgres
21:54 < karasz> i know that
21:54 < karasz> but it is asyncron
21:54 < karasz> it's main purpose is replication
21:55 < mnemoc> http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/slony1/projdisplay.php <--- this one looks better
21:55 < karasz> i need multimaster not master slave
21:55 < keinek> YES!!!
21:55 < keinek> i have t2 in my notebook!
21:55 < mnemoc> keinek: ?
21:55 < keinek> :D
21:55 < karasz> the only one that i found was pgcluster
21:56 < mnemoc> keinek: kudos! :)
21:56 < karasz> but right now it is not usable for production servers
21:56 < karasz> god work keinek 
21:56 < karasz> good work keinek 
21:56 < mnemoc> karasz: what people at #postgresql say about?
21:56 < karasz> not much
21:57 < karasz> pgcluster
21:57 < karasz> but i have my doubts about the ideea behind it
21:57 < keinek> yes... i will create a doc about that
21:57 < keinek> so... how create a grub disk for t2
21:57 < keinek> :)
21:57 < mnemoc> keinek: go for it
21:58 < mnemoc> karasz: master/slave is better than nothing anyway
21:58 < karasz> postgresql is especialy picki about messing with his files
22:04 -!- rxr_ [rene@e178134072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #t2
22:04 -!- Topic for #t2:  T2 | 2.1.0-rc1 RELEASED | The next generation of System Development Environments (SDE) | http://www.t2-project.org/
22:04 -!- Topic set by mnemoc [] [Tue Jun 21 16:27:15 2005]
22:04 [Users #t2]
22:04 [ _Lewellyn] [ dsoul ] [ keinek] [ mnemoc] [ nzg ] [ sepp_   ] 
22:04 [ _Ragnar_ ] [ jsaw  ] [ madtux] [ morfoh] [ rxr ] [ SerWou  ] 
22:04 [ CIA-9    ] [ karasz] [ minto ] [ mtr   ] [ rxr_] [ valentin] 
22:04 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 18 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal]
22:04 -!- Channel #t2 created Sun Aug  8 21:15:33 2004
22:04 -!- Irssi: Join to #t2 was synced in 15 secs
22:04 < mnemoc> you will have to invest in improving your app to support master/slave
22:05 < karasz> ?
22:05 < karasz> i did not get that
22:05 < karasz> more speciffic please
22:06 < minto> karasz: optimizing the app not just the database.
22:06 < karasz> fine tuned all 900 queries
22:07 < karasz> i won't say that there is no place to more tunning in the app
22:08 < karasz> but i guess that SO and hardware tunning should ocurr also
22:09 < minto> Not just tuning. Maybe rewrite parts so master/slave will do.
22:10 < karasz> in master slave configuration the maste rdoes all the job, if it goes down the slave become master so the system has HA
22:11 < karasz> i wan't a setup in which not just the master works, but the job is paralelized between more computers
22:11 < mnemoc> uhm
22:12 < karasz> trying to find a way in which a query is distributed among multiple computers
22:12 < karasz> that's why i thought abt clustering
22:12 < karasz> by itself postgres can not do that
22:12 < karasz> a queryy wil run on one cpu allways
22:13 < karasz> even if it has more cpus
22:13 < minto> having a few masters in sync is possible? Then maybe load balancing will do.
22:13 < karasz> no multiple masters in sync
22:14 < karasz> just pgcluster can do that
22:14 < karasz> but pgcluster has some real stability issues
22:14 -!- rxr [rene@e178175099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:15 < karasz> i never heard of a pgcluster setup working in an production envirorment
22:17 < minto> I might be talking nonsense but I am just thinking out load. What is the minimal interval for replication? Is it possible with load balancing to have all writes go to one master and reads be devided across a few replications?
22:17 < minto> What is the size of the database?
22:17 < karasz> in rows or GB?
22:18 < karasz> minto: i will think abt that
22:18 < minto> in Gb
22:18 < karasz> 2
22:19 < karasz> load balancing as far as i know it is done only by pgpool
22:19 < minto> can the db be separated in logfiles and data.
22:19 < minto> logfile = log tables.
22:19 < karasz> it is
22:19 < karasz> ahm
22:19 < karasz> now i get it
22:20 < karasz> hmmm...
22:20 < karasz> what do you mean by log tables?
22:21 < minto> stuff for tracking an tracing
22:21 < minto> hardly ever read
22:21 < karasz> i have some of those
22:21 < karasz> in the same db
22:22 < karasz> they tend to get very big but i do not touch them
22:22 < karasz> so they do not influence speed
22:22 < karasz> on this matter postgres is well thought out
22:23 < minto> might be. But if the data most oftenly written/changes is actually quite small keeping it in memory might improve speed.
22:24 < karasz> it does
22:24 < karasz> i applied that workaround
22:24 < karasz> i separatted live data from archived data
22:24 < karasz> same db but different tables
22:25 < minto> hmm
22:26 < minto> I think I am out of options.
22:27 < jsaw> I hate shell scripting
22:27 < jsaw> re :)
22:28 < karasz> your thinking tends to be generaly valabil
22:30 < karasz> valabil=true
22:31 < minto> I gotta go now. sleep wel all.
22:31 < karasz> cu minto
22:31 < jsaw> cu minto 
22:31 < morfoh> sleep well minto 
22:42 < keinek> YES!!!
22:42 < keinek> i have fluxbox in my notebook!
22:42 < keinek> :D
22:52 -!- veki [~veki@217.24.19.40] has joined #t2
22:53 < veki> hi
22:53 < jsaw> off to work, cu later
22:55 < mnemoc> hi veki 
22:55 < mnemoc> cu jsaw 
22:56 < morfoh> cu jsaw 
22:56 < morfoh> hi veki 
22:57 < veki> hi
22:58 < veki> how are you doing
22:59 < morfoh> veki: quite good  and quite busy ... as mostly 
22:59 < veki> I am building menmosyne optimized for my machine that I reserved for testing.  At the same time I am trying to fix one X server, hm it says that /tmp/X0-lock cannot be accessed since X0-lock cannot be stated due to input/output error
22:59 < veki> hm, as you may guess I am tonight in my vampire mood.  One more night without sleep :-)
23:01 < veki> btw, I am listening CD on my t2 machine.  Thanks to minto again. Since I am composer I cannot live without music.  I like silence too, but computer fans are not silence :-(
23:03 < veki> I will be back soon in, 10 minutes
23:29 < veki> back again,a and again starnge experience.  I am it seems to me subscribed to strange experiences.  Namely, it was not possible to remove that X0-lock file even with rm -f.  However, fsck said that filesystem is clean.  I wanted to install network card in order to save data.  But, network card was resetting machine and that confused file system.  However, fsck was activated and cleared that X0-lock issue this time, so th eproblme was solved.  Hm, that means that fsck 
23:39 -!- sepp [~sepp@p213.54.196.195.tisdip.tiscali.de] has joined #t2
23:39 -!- sepp_ [~sepp@p213.54.196.195.tisdip.tiscali.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:43 < veki> I will be back soon, one more strange problme I have to solve.  People always ask me or help when strange problems are concerned :-)
23:46 < CIA-9> chris * r10176 /trunk/package/base/dietlibc/pkg_patch/pkg_ppp.patch: * fixed more issues for building with dietlibc
23:51 -!- veki [~veki@217.24.19.40] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
--- Log closed Thu Jul 14 00:00:00 2005